Several of todays papers are making the claim that Martin McGuinness has been a British Agent within Sinn Fein and the IRA.
The Sunday World story is front page news and declares that "McGuinness was Brit Spy." According to the Sunday World, Martin Igram, the former handler from the Force Research Unit supports his claim with documentary evidence.
The Sunday World claims to have obtained a transcript of a conversation that Ingram claims is between McGuiness and his handler. Again, according to Ingram, McGuinness was known as agent J118. Martin's brother Willie is alleged to have been agent J119.
Ingram told the Sunday World "The most significant thing for me in this transcript is the fact that McGuinness's handler is the driving force behind the human bomb campaign." This is a reference to the human bomb campaign waged in the early 1990's where indviduals were forced to drive a bomb to a destination and effectively became unwilling suicide bombers. The campaign was largely centred in the North West and Ingram's claims appear to suggest that there was a determined effort to keep this type of campaign away from Belfast and the East coast.
Many of us are well familiar with the claims that there is a high level mole in SinnFein, and indeed for qutie some time some very high ranking names have been bandied about.
From my perspective, if there was any truth to this as yet unfounded allegation, the questions I would have would be much more focused on who drove the peace process, when and why. Unless there is a satisfaction among members of SF that the process belongs to them, to the rank and file, there is a real and present danger of increasing defection to splinter groups.
These are dangerous allegations by the Sunday World indeed, and the fact that they have been printed appears to suggest that they are confident about their sources and their substantiation.
Sinn Fein are calling the claims nonsense, so we must just wait and see what transpires over the next few days. As the Chinese tell us, we are indeed blessed to live in interesting times.
I am having trouble posting the links to this story, but good resources are at indymedia.com and breakingnews.iol.ie
61 comments:
Hardly a scoop. Ingram has been peddling this line on Slugger's for ages. Now someone is willing to pay him for it. Happy MI.
(sluggerette, there is only one source, Ingram. A few publications repeat the same source's claim)
Cryptome has some details
Thanks anon, I thought it was worth amending the post from that point of view.
Indeed. I have been of the opinion for some time that Ingram is not only a former spy but is still very much active with the role of trying to destablize Sinn Fein so that many of their voters will go back to SDLP. Then we can have an executive with "nice" nationalists.
Or perhaps I'm being paranoid and the real reason is that Martin has his next book ready to go to the publishers.
As to the alleged documentary proof which Martin has "seen", I could sit down right now and produce a transcript of a conversation that Martin Imgram had with the devil.
Nothing will come of it.
INDYMEDIA has more details
You can copy and paste the links from the comments into your post
Canadian
"nice" nationalists?
Nah, the link is not working for me at the moment anon, but I did cite indymedia in the post. Thanks for the link though, that helps
pakman
Why do you think I put in in quotation marks.
I was simply being facetious.
I respect everyone.
Regards
A meeting that seldom gets a mention is the one that took place in or around Derry on November 5, 1993.
It was reported that Douglas Hurd, the then Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, had paid a visit to the deep water port on the Foyle. Now that's not the sort of trip you'd expect a Foreign Secretary to be on. Sometime later I raised this meeting with a contact and was told the names of two other people there, "Martin and Mitchel".
It's likely that the forthcoming Downing Street Declaration was discussed in addition to the spate of sectarian attacks - and a possible PIRA ceasefire. Yet, as far as I know, this would not have been part of Hurd's brief. Was he representing the Prime Minister or was he, perhaps, wearing his MI6 cap?
I remember Mitchel telling people "you know where the door is" when they raised (rather tame and well argued) objections to the GFA just after it had been released. All of this is quite scary, if, and it's a "big if", it's true.
Was Ingram not correct about steak knife ??
What a load of spherical objects! This guy has been trying to sell his dodgy goods for months on this site and elsewhere. Last year he was all over the Guardian making rather innocuous claims about his employers from whom he was claiming to be 'on the run'. Then he pops up here and does the dirt on stakeknife to help establish his credentials, without stirring up any great reaction from those same employers.
Now we're expected to believe this rubbish? That the republican movement was being led by the nose by the Brits at the very time when it was bombing London - they didn't NEED suicide bombers there for heaven's sake.
No wonder the Guardian etc. have dropped him like a hot brick recently. It's going to be interesting to see what the spin on this will be if it does ever get reported in England.
FFS
Pete, I had a long and well thought out answer for you there, but the post disappeared. Well, we sure aint in Kansas, so here I go again.
Right, I was trying to say that if the SW allegations are false or found to be ungrounded, well they are dangerous and potentially de-stabilising.
In the run up to any major decisions, SF hold meetings with all their cumann and as many members as possible to 'sell' the idea, and achieve consensus. This is the basis of their broad democracy within the party. Now, if the leadership turn out to be puppy farmers selling gip pups, there will be some major soul searching going on out there.
While the present dissident threat is small numerically, they are a virulent lot and the last thing our peaceful country needs is a new lot of hot headed disenchanted republicans.
I stick to my guns (oops) on the dangerous tag, it could prove to be just that unfortunately
in reply to "canadian". You say " Then we can have an executive with "nice" nationalists". This already exists! Gerry Adams proposed Ian Paisley for firdt minister last week, how more compliant can the provisional movement be??
I read the links there thanks. As some one commented on indymedia, its bad enough to hear what was done to the hungerstrikers and now this. I agree. Is there any thing about republicanism in the last thirty odd years that they held sacred, which has not turned out to be a sham in some way.
If it is true, it will be a shame, since all of republicanism will suffer not just SF.
SF and the PRM have sold their goal of freedom for power. Quislings.
Anonymous
You obviously did not read my follow-up post.
I have no problem with SF. They have a mandate which has to be respected.
I was trying (I guess ineffectively) to try to suggest a motive for why Ingram is saying this now. I agree with missfitz that this is potentially dangerous.
Sinn Fein is loosing credibility on the ground in republican areas as it is. If this turns out to be true it will be difficult for the leadership to stand over it's strategy and a lot of supporters will be lost to the already growing dissidents.
"If this turns out to be true..."
Well that's the beauty of Ingram's scheme.
He has shouted something out that is impossible to prove or, more importantly to him, to disprove.
He's trying to sow dissention in Republican ranks for a reason known only to him.
From the people.
'The people have learnt that a former special branch officer found proof of agent J118's real identity in a secret document claimed to have been stolen.
The former COP went to the Ian Paisley's DUP whom he supports, in a bid to destroy the Sinn Fein man's career.
It is believed the DUP had planned to drop the bombshell about the man's identity when the Northern Irish Assembly met in the autum.
So I agree both with missfitz and pete. I don't think there will be a return to sustained terrorism like we had in the past, but I do agree with fitzi that these allegations if true are destablising. This, as the people claim,is the third body blow to SF. They cannot go on taking these blows without it affecting them electorally and in their own communities. They need to either quash these allegations completely, or come clean. They cannot afford another scap scenario where denials are issued and then it is proven true.
They need to tread carefully, or they could de-stabilise themselves.
This is so not funny, all of my posts are being eaten.
Here I go again.
Pete, I was trying to say that whether the allegations are true or false, they are dangerous to stability either way.
Adams and McGuinnes put it all on the line to persuade the membership that peaceful democratic means to acheiving a United Ireland were superior to the armed struggle.
If I was laying up my bed in South Armagh tonight having decommissioned my rusty rifle on the say so of Martin McGuinness, I would be feeling well pissed off and very unsettled.
Indeed, I guess I would feel like I had been lied to. Imagine, being told that we were going to outsmart the Brits by negotiating with them and then finding out that your persuader was a BRIT SPY.
Goodness, you couldnt make this stuff up.
While I appreciate the dissident threat is small numerically, we must remember that it is virulent and I shudder to think what would happen if it started to sell in ranks as a result of this. A dangerous scemario, if you ask me
Are a lot of the Sunday papers over there as disreputable as there were when I lived there?
I note that BBC On-line hasn't picked up this allegation.
Pete
I think we are slightly at odds, while also in agreement on the big issues on this one.
Firstly, let me tell you that no matter what the proper term for a tout is, in South Armagh that man is a Brit Spy. No one will be standing on ceremony on that one I can tell you....
I'm not 100% sure I follow your main argument. Are you saying that the membership should not be directing the future direction? Well, that is the weakness and strength of Sinn Fein. Every single person is asked and recognised for playing their part, and there is always an emphasis on this within the party. Adams and McGuiness are the leadership, but never forget its the member who is the ultimate determinant of policy and direction.
Thats why this is so serious. For that articulated truck that is republicanism to have been stopped and turned around in the road, with very little slippage has been a monumental achievement. If the people now feel that they were being led into this by a Brit Spy, they will not be pleased.
And the danger remains, as I've said, that disgruntled members of SF will make their way into an organisation that they feel is true to the genuine cause of republicanism, and one that has not been infiltrated.
I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just positing that this is the way it is
Joe
No sign of it the Beeb as yet, but it is mentioned on UTV.ie
I see the Times also has it now:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2201375,00.html
It's very easy to make allegations that are, by definition, unproveable. Forged documents aren't unheard of in "dirty" wars.
I very much doubt that Martin McGuiness will be going to court to attempt to "prove" his innocence.
Sinn Fein have denied it and, I think, they will just ignore the bait.
Regular slugger readers, like myself, see clearly that Ingram has his own agenda.
Pete,
Do you think those same contradictions pervade the DUP?
Will that party survive the Old Man's death?
Pete
It's a while since I read the Secret History of the IRA by Ed Maloney, but if I recall correctly, this was one of his key points.
Many observers of SF and republicanism would always have maintained that bringing ALL of the people in the party along on this issue was going to be difficult and require all of the powers of persuasion of the leadership and then some.
For one of those leaders to be an alleged informer in the pay of the Government he has committed to overthrow, it places the arguments and persuasions into a whole new and untenable light.
I'm not so sure of your use of calling SF leadership led. That might be a perception or appellation of commentators, but there is a genuine feeling of democracy within the party. The 'leaders' appear to be genuinely in tune with their membership and fully attuned to their wishes.
As with all movements, there is going to be idea generation at the leadership level, but before it is implemented it has to gain wide approval. In addition, there are other layers of decision making fora within SF, and these groups have a serious input into any agreed position
Hey Pete
I see Ken Loach won in Cannes with The Wind that Shook the Barley! Bit of a surprise?
"Put and Irishman on a spit and you can always get another Irishman to turn him"
George Bernard Shaw.
Irish = treachery
I'm laying up in my bed in South Armagh (wondering why I didn't have a rusty rifle to decommission)feeling amused at the amount of concern being expressed about the SW claim.
Surely the front page should have been an in depth interview with Reg Empey on his admission that unionist politicians and paramilitaries were connected after all.
My goodness, I've just had a horrible thought. A distraction from the difficulties unionists find themselves in! Surely not.
Now I'm pissed off.
Observer
I thought that the distraction for the UU was David Trimble's action against the 32csm website for threats against him?
It seemed like a very big story )sic) on a very convenient day.
Sorry you didnt have a rusty gun or anything to decommission, you must have felt wild left out
I think the killing of Dennis Donaldson showed just how precarious the whole thing is. If there was ever a chance for dissident republicanism, this is it - it's unclear what the future will hold with regards to the Assembly, and what happens if it doesn't get running.
If it could be conclusively proved a memember of the SF leadership was a British Spy it would blow this whole place open. It is complacent to suggest that an armed campaign is impossible. It is difficult at the moment because the grassroots trust the leadership, and consequently there is little support. If trust in the leadership was gobe, a vacuum forms. Never forget how easy it is for events to move beyond anyone's control once kicked off.
I don't believe it, particularly when you factor in the demonisation of McGuiness in the British media in the past, but these aren't allegations that should be lightly thrown around.
I thought Trimble's allegation was made before Reg opened his heart.
The Wind that shakes the barley is about Ermie O'Malley who outed the British spy, Michael Collins. Tjese rumours should be ignored: they even tried to say Freddy Scappaticci and Denis Donaldson were touts. Donaldson was pally with Bobby Sands so no way was he a tout. Perhaps Martin was going through a vulnerable time in his life.
I noticed on another posting about David Ervine that he gave a down and out loyalist in New York a few hundred $$. Now where would people like Ervine and toehrs get that sort of disposable money from?
Martin was caught up in a situation and, not being from a Republican background, he simply siezed the situation.
As regards Gearoid, if the old maxim that you know a man by the company he keeps holds true...
Kendai says: "If it could be conclusively proved a memember of the SF leadership was a British Spy it would blow this whole place open."
Why is that? Irish military intelligence helped set up the Provos, the Provo and British terror campaigns derailed the civil rights movement which put Britain on the rack. The violence got Britain and Fianna Fail off the hook. McGuinness is not from a traditional Republican family (unlike Denis).
Collins gets short shrifgt in O'Malley's book, Tim Healy and the entire McNeill/McDowell family are of dubious vintage. So what is your point? The Irish were hoodwinked in 1970. The GFA was, as Seamas Mallon said, Sunningdale for slow learners. The Free State soldiers of 1923 could not march properly. Nor can the RUC of McGuinness.
I saw someone saying before Denis went in to tell all to Gerry and the Peacemakers, he made sure to ocllect his $300 expenses in the SF/MI5 office down below. Denis, btw, is the legendary Denis Donaldson, close friend and comtrade of Bobby Sands MP snd defender of St Mathews Church when "out of the ashes of 1969" arose the monster.
George Bush really an alien; Man bites dog, Martin McGuinness Brit Spy
While I am inclined to disbelieve this story has anyone though through the implications of it being true.
That some of the worst atrocities of the troubles were conceived, organized and planned by British government. (The Blanket had an article claiming that British intelligence was behind the Omagh bombing to discredit the Real IRA and force them into a cease fire). If you unionists out there really believe this let’s see you refuse to talk to honest Tony until he “renounces violence” and decommissions his arsenal.
That a secret arm of the British government has its agents secretly working as ministers inside a democratically elected government body and making decisions outside the structures of that body—was it MI5 who decided to abolish the 11+?
If these secret arms of the establishment have done all that Ingram claims where else are they operating in British society? We already know they were active inside the campaign for nuclear disarmament (CND) so why should be no believe they are active inside the British Labour party? Look at the 180 degree turn in labour policy. Honest Tony was once a member of CND now he ready to replace Trident; patricia Hewitt and harriet Harman were leaders of the civil liberties movement and now they part of a government which is the greatest threat to civil liberties since WW2; Peter, the prcconsul, Hain was a leader in the fight against imperialism and now he defends Honest Tony’s illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, and don’t forget the CP member John Reid or the ex trot Jack straw. It makes you wonder if there is such a thing as “British democracy”.
If you guys out there in sluggerland believe these conspiracy theories from Martin Ingram then follow them to their logical conclusion—there is no such thing as British Democracy.
HECK
Interesting that this revelation comes at the same time as a Westminster Committee asks why so much is being spent on intelligence in Ireland, is it not?
It also wouldn't surprise me if it were true.
There is a lesson in all this - violence requires deception and people ignoring human suffering to be successful. If you put yourself in the way of violence, expect to be deceived. I am sure that the dissident republicans are already leaking like sieves
I have to agree with Heck, those that are looking at this through Sinn Fein glasses - as though the world revolves around them and them alone and they must be protected - are missing the big story.
IF true, this is a scandal for the British government, not for the Provos alone. Given that the British government has the current War On Terror at hand, the revelations that they were using agents at the very top of the IRA that were involved in murder and terror while they were agents are damaging. It is one thing to the British public mind that their government was doing the same with loyalists to defeat the IRA but quite another that their government was doing the same with the IRA to blow up civilians and their own soldiers. If so with the IRA, what then with the likes of Al Queda?
Bad, bad news for the British.
If Ingram isn't putting the mix in, he is well advised to pony up. 'Pissing on the myth' is not a game and should not be treated as such, Mr Ingram - it is not just a myth you are pissing on but people's lives - those you claim you are doing this for, the victims.
I'm not sure it matters if it's true or not, everyone will deny it and SF wouldn't want to believe it. No one will move against McGuinness, though he may get some queer looks from now on.
Not much happening on the Sinner front. Is this good or bad news for McGuinness?
MMG has been accused of nearly everything one could be possible accused of. It is as if someone is going through a list. I believe child abuse and rape haven't been taken yet. They should be next.
He must be some man because he is still standing.
The accusation seem to have a rather opposite effect on me.
Nevin
It's probably good news. Sinn Fein are just going to ignore it. It's impossible to prove or disprove. Documents can and are being forged by spooks all the time.
Even if it were true, which I doubt very much, they'll still ignore it
Many senior serving and former security personnel have trashed the idea.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=693042
But wait, Joe, aren't those 'nameless, faceless securocrats'??
Never used those words in my life.
Someone from SF will have to answer.
Although I imagine they will decline the bait.
Nice one though.
Joe Canuck: Securocrats deny: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=693042
Why do you accept the word of unnamed securocrats in a securocrat paper? Hawks and doves. Here is another twist: if McGuinness is an MI6 peacenick, would that not explain the murder of Bobby Sands' pal, Denis Donaldson - in McGuinness' own backyard.
Let us also not forget it was Mr Rowan given the "exclusive" denial of Scappaticci, when he was exposed.
Taigs,
I didn't say anything about accepting it. I just published a link.
You can make what you want of it for yourself.
I could say also, why would anyone accept the word of an unnamed self serving person such as Ingram? That's not a real name.
Remember we were told the IRA from God's own country (like God, they are everywhere) drove up, whacked Sands' pal in Donegal and went back to watch juniour football in North Louth. Let's face it: McGuinness has form in whacking lesser touts. Also, as MMcG would say, it was a "war situation" so, why not turn Martin at a vulnerable time in his life? Also, if Martin out his hand up, besides being whacked, he would have been easily replaced. Maybe he can be moved to the House of Lords.
Lord McGuiness of bogside.
That's a good one.
Lord McGuinness of the Bog. or Lord McGuinness in the Bog...sounds "better"
Look guys, stop bickering. My new book will be on the shelves soon and you will all see what a clever man I am, single handedly exposing the biggest secret in British/Irish Republican history.
Marty
Taigs
Are you impying that M.MG is shitting himself?
Oh the fun being had on Slugger speculating on the murder of a human being. On the toilet, shitting himself. Hilarious.
Oh what a tangled web...
Very good Walter.
I believe you also said “I cannot tell how the truth may be; I say the tale as it was said to me”
Y'all can go back to slugger now, its fixed
Martin Ingram Aka Ian Hurst is a liar.Soldier of Fortune.Mercenary.Only interested in making money.He is a con-man who will sell his lies to anyone who will pay for them.
The person who calls himself Martin ingram but is in fact ex Int Corps SSgt Ian Hurst (known as rocky) is a liar of the highest order. His book STEAKNIFE is almost complete fiction, as are his assertions that Martin McGUINNESS was an agent of the state. He is dementedly lying completely about his past service in FRU. He only ever served in sleepy backwaters of the Province and never came face to face with anyone except low level eyes and ears agents. He never ran STEAKNIFE or even met him. In short, his book is a complete fabrication based on god knows what. He endangers the lives of serving and former soldiers as well as civilians with his ridiculous fairy tales. Hopefully he will appear in court at some of the current inquiries and investigations so he can be shown to be the liar he really is.
This message comes from
http://www.jackgrantham.blogspot.com/
Martin Ingram represents British attitudes of the Irish.He is a mouthpiece for the Brish Ruling Class.
"In a calculated blow, Diana went on to suggest Charles was not fit to be king and that her son, Prince William, should carry on the succession after Queen Elizabeth II’s death.
A Machiavelian struggle for political influence began, with sections of the ruling class and the media stoking up the conflict between the Windsors and the Spencers to strengthen their own political standing.
The erosion of all the institutions through which some form of popular control was exerted over the ruling elite, the narrow base of official politics, pose grave dangers to the democratic rights of the working class. The type of skullduggery exposed in the palace is the expression of a diseased social order. It should not be seen as the exception, but the rule. There is no reason to believe that the rest of Britain’s ruling elite will prove any less willing than the Windsors and the Spencers to employ whatever means are deemed necessary in order to preserve their own privileged existence."
More news at http://www.jackgrantham.blogspot.com/
Its hardly suprising that Sinn Fein consider rumours about their politicalm leaders to be "nonsense" in considering the debacle that surrounds the steaknife affair. On what basis could the British Government decide that it would be appropriate to tout the informant name of its most prized agent inside the IRA to the nation press which consequenced in those same agents, alledgedly, being named and their lifes put in danger. Why would the British government/security services set out to destroy its own credibility by having its own "national assets" lifes put in danger. What about the very substantial interests that the IRA has in drug trade? Check out www.marginalfootnotes.com and follow the links at the bottom opf the page. The whole story reaks of bullshit. Whats the meat of story is what the general public wants to know. What has this steaknife done requiring such transparent plots to be hatched. Is steaknife the steak and knife? Was steaknife involved in the Manchester bombings in the 1990's? Was it his idea? What about the Omagh bombings? Was that his idea - i mean look actually happened there. Did steaknife mastermind the 911 hijackings resulting in the death of around 3,000 people? "Dont be so ridiculous" you say? "Steaknife was a national asset as if he would do that"! The British government should concentrate on protecting their assets and where appropriate those of their allies, not fabricating bullshit stories to protect weak, but obvioulsy well connected agents that should never been recruited into the intelligence services and should never have been supported by us in their terror campaigns.
http://marginalfootnotes.wordpress.com/2006/05/29/martin-mcguinness-british-spy/
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